Balancing basi bomb

[[{USATREM}] !Gunther!]

Humans built a grenade, aliens just kinda pop the bomb out, they don't spend money on them. How do you think game would go if humans got a new grenade every 40 seconds?

Between a free bomb, and a grenade you have to buy, I'd hope that the one i spent money on was a lot more powerful.

Maybe grenades should cost a bit more... 400c?

It IS a lot more powerful... >_>

[TheMuffinMann]

A Grenade costs credits, thus being something worth considering.

The Basilisk used to be an underused alien incapable of baserushing.
Granted the ability to deploy the "basi-bomb" the basilisk has become a different meaning and of course it is new to people.
-> Overpowered?

In regards of the bombs being overpowered.
I highly doubt it.

Basilisks have 60/80 HP and so are easily killed by some rushing humans
-1 for basilisks
Basilisks are rather slow within bases and are killed very fast by turrets/retstacks
-1 for basilisks
Basilisks can heal themselves, if they aren't within a gunfight
+1 for basilisks
Basilisks recharge a bomb within every minute or so
+1 for basilisks
BUT deploying the bomb has quite a huge risk of either getting killed or damaged and then potentially chased
-1 for basilisks
Basilisks are highly dependant on teamplay
-1 for basilisks
Experienced basilisks can kill just about any solo human given the human is not a suit and does use neither flame nor lcannon
-1 / +1 for basilisks
Basilisks are cheap aliens (1 - 2 evos)
+1 for basilisks
Basilisks, if capable of evolving withing short range, can drop about two bombs within 5-10 seconds
+2 for basilisks
Basilisks are prone to knockback, thus making teslas and rets quite efficient, but adv basis are prone to less knockback
-1 + 1/2
Basilisks have a healing aura making them likable by many teammates etc (if teamplay is present
+1 1/2

To wage out the odds, basilisks seem to be at a slight disadvantage of -1

So, to say the least. The issue isn't the basibomb being too powerful. But it is the humans incapable of rushing/teamplaying properly

[Iltavuo]

basilisk

+
is cheap ( 1 evo )
has more hp than dretch
can wallclimb
heals fast
heals others
is often protected because it can heal others
has the bomb for killing structures
can kill most humans without a bsuit, while costing only 1 evo

-
is still slightly weak in some situations


Now do I think that the basilisk is overpowered? Not really: it works very well in some situations ( as do lucy/grenade/mara zap/goon barbs ) but it can usually be countered in some way. You can also make a nice list to support any opinion you've about it, depending on your playstyle with it and what characteristics you want to focus on.

I could also make a list like this

+
can heal
can wallclimb
has a bomb
has grab
is cheap ( 1 evo )

-
dies against any pair of humans
dies against teslas
dies against two turrets placed right
dies against bsuit
dies against lucy
dies against flamer
needs teamwork not to die
healing others only works if there is teamwork
other people hug you constantly for healing
turrets knockback them
teslas knockback them
most human weapons knockback them
the hp is very low
one bomb doesn't destroy buildings
bombing gets you killed
very low damage

This list makes basilisk look very useless; I don't think that is very truthful. Killing lucy-bsuits isn't what basilisk is supposed to, so listing stuff like that is kind of pointless. Actually, listing negative things in general probably isn't that informative, because it's a cheap ( 1 evo ) class, so of course it will do badly in many situations.

[TheWolfKiller]

Humans built a grenade, aliens just kinda pop the bomb out, they don't spend money on them. How do you think game would go if humans got a new grenade every 40 seconds?

Between a free bomb, and a grenade you have to buy, I'd hope that the one i spent money on was a lot more powerful.

Maybe grenades should cost a bit more... 400c?

It IS a lot more powerful... >_>

That's my point, it is a lot more powerful because you spent cash on it, one evo for unlimited weak, bombs or 200c for one powerful grenade.
For humans to get to overmind they usually have to crawl through acid tubes, trappers, goons, dretch storm, rants, hives, and baracades before they get there.
Aliens can more easily bomb humans because they are much faster, and gooey machine guns don't slow them down unless their standing still. And theres no 800 pound human with giant claws to stop them.
Point is, it is evenly balanced, aliens grenade's price is this :Unlimited weaker bombs for 1 frag.
And humans price is this: One powerful grenade for 200c per grenade.
I could see raising price for grenade, because the power>price ratio is a bit off in my opinion.
Humans can't so easily stop basi rush as aliens can stop grenade rush, but since it's easier for aliens to get the grenade in the human base, lets hope it doesn't blow up with the force of a huge grenade.

[[{USATREM}] !Gunther!]

Humans built a grenade, aliens just kinda pop the bomb out, they don't spend money on them. How do you think game would go if humans got a new grenade every 40 seconds?

Between a free bomb, and a grenade you have to buy, I'd hope that the one i spent money on was a lot more powerful.

Maybe grenades should cost a bit more... 400c?

It IS a lot more powerful... >_>

That's my point, it is a lot more powerful because you spent cash on it, one evo for unlimited weak, bombs or 200c for one powerful grenade.
For humans to get to overmind they usually have to crawl through acid tubes, trappers, goons, dretch storm, rants, hives, and baracades before they get there.
Aliens can more easily bomb humans because they are much faster, and gooey machine guns don't slow them down unless their standing still. And theres no 800 pound human with giant claws to stop them.
Point is, it is evenly balanced, aliens grenade's price is this :Unlimited weaker bombs for 1 frag.
And humans price is this: One powerful grenade for 200c per grenade.
I could see raising price for grenade, because the power>price ratio is a bit off in my opinion.
Humans can't so easily stop basi rush as aliens can stop grenade rush, but since it's easier for aliens to get the grenade in the human base, lets hope it doesn't blow up with the force of a huge grenade.

Except you've forgotten about something: time.
Nobody has time (or much of a place) to sit around and wait for a bomb to recharge. They usually die. So humans may technically pay slightly more for their grenade, but they get it instantly every time.
But, aliens can do it mostly anywhere and anytime with OM still up, while humans have to run back to armory.

[TheWolfKiller]

Humans built a grenade, aliens just kinda pop the bomb out, they don't spend money on them. How do you think game would go if humans got a new grenade every 40 seconds?

Between a free bomb, and a grenade you have to buy, I'd hope that the one i spent money on was a lot more powerful.

Maybe grenades should cost a bit more... 400c?

It IS a lot more powerful... >_>

That's my point, it is a lot more powerful because you spent cash on it, one evo for unlimited weak, bombs or 200c for one powerful grenade.
For humans to get to overmind they usually have to crawl through acid tubes, trappers, goons, dretch storm, rants, hives, and baracades before they get there.
Aliens can more easily bomb humans because they are much faster, and gooey machine guns don't slow them down unless their standing still. And theres no 800 pound human with giant claws to stop them.
Point is, it is evenly balanced, aliens grenade's price is this :Unlimited weaker bombs for 1 frag.
And humans price is this: One powerful grenade for 200c per grenade.
I could see raising price for grenade, because the power>price ratio is a bit off in my opinion.
Humans can't so easily stop basi rush as aliens can stop grenade rush, but since it's easier for aliens to get the grenade in the human base, lets hope it doesn't blow up with the force of a huge grenade.

Except you've forgotten about something: time.
Nobody has time (or much of a place) to sit around and wait for a bomb to recharge. They usually die. So humans may technically pay slightly more for their grenade, but they get it instantly every time.
But, aliens can do it mostly anywhere and anytime with OM still up, while humans have to run back to armory.

And so with 3 lines you blow off everything i said, genius. *cough* Universal Statements *cough* ("Nobody has time")

Fact is, some people do have time, all the basi bombers DO sit around and wait for the next run, i got like 5 bombs in a row once, with one basi, because i sat around waiting for recharge.

[omgwtfbbq]

....And after that wave of "ideas"..

Basi-bomb doesn't even kill a ret, and any smart team would repair in the ~1 minute it takes for his evo to recharge.
What about grenade or mine? They can kill a goon in a single try. One basi-bomb can't even kill a ret, while one grenade can kill over half of the buildable alien stuctures. And grenade only costs 200c.

Previously, the only way to stop a heavy camp in SD was to get an adv goon and hope to pull off two barbs at a ret. Now, 4 basi can wreak a base of campers. Now if these ~10 campers would have rushed at the basi, or put a mine out front or anything useful, then they would keep their base.

I've seen so many games go to waste just because in like 5vs5 or 6vs6 games, 1 or 2 aliens get 2-3 evos and start bassirushing.
With just 1 or 2 nooby humans who seem to stupid to walk away from that weird noisy ball of puke. They can go on forever and certainly cause incredible amounts of damage on a base.
Seeing people skyrocket 300-700points in 5 minutes just cause of a few successful bassibombs is insane.

Also seem to be talking from a pro perspective. Knowing what to do depending on the current gameplay. Most players do not have this ability to properly react to certain situations.

[Korova]

maybe a stupid idea but why can't humans touch and push the basibomb away a bit? ofcourse they risk to get bombed but at least there's a chance to minimise damage to important structures.

for example atcs; two skilled basis can kill the default human base within 5 mins, but if the humans can push some basibombs of the ledge they have a chance to survive untill s2

[Rotacak]

Because pushing structures is little problematic and moreover basibomb is not a object, it is a missile.

[[{USATREM}] !Gunther!]

Because pushing structures is little problematic and moreover basibomb is not a object, it is a missile.

Same physics/engine problems that prevent things like grenades from being hit away by Aliens.

[epicaldude]

Because pushing structures is little problematic and moreover basibomb is not a object, it is a missile.

Basi bomb "bounces" (or at least makes sound) when touched.
Can we not hook into that and move ball away from close humans?

Or actually, each few ticks change basi bomb direction a bit away from near H if any human is very near.

[Korova]

Because pushing structures is little problematic and moreover basibomb is not a object, it is a missile.

Same physics/engine problems that prevent things like grenades from being hit away by Aliens.

hmm i should have guessed that myself, thanks for the info guys

only other solution i can come up with: the normal basi bomb is an explosion of gas (similar to adv basi gas with maybe bigger range and without damage to structures) and the adv basi bomb is the current one.

That way s1 is a bit more balanced (if humies still camp in s2 or 3 they deserve to die anyway )

[[{USATREM}] !Gunther!]

Because pushing structures is little problematic and moreover basibomb is not a object, it is a missile.

Same physics/engine problems that prevent things like grenades from being hit away by Aliens.

hmm i should have guessed that myself, thanks for the info guys

only other solution i can come up with: the normal basi bomb is an explosion of gas (similar to adv basi gas with maybe bigger range and without damage to structures) and the adv basi bomb is the current one.

That way s1 is a bit more balanced (if humies still camp in s2 or 3 they deserve to die anyway )

Basi bomb is a great addition to the game, and while this thread was originally about changing it, I see no need.
Say you're in a game where 2 "smart" campers sit in a base shooting at all they see. With rets + the idiots, that equals a lot of dead aliens. You could kill one (as in only 1) ret with a goon before the other turrets and previously mentioned idiots kill you. But that's 3 evos down the drain.
You could use a marauder...maybe if all they've got is shotguns.
So your evo flow is very slow, and a Dretch takes way too many bites to kill a wall of turrets. What to turn to? A teammate and basi bombs. Now with -2 basis, almost all of that ret cluster is gone.

Lets not forget the final minutes of a S3/S3 game where H camps with lucis and suits. Send in a couple tyrants and lose 10 evos or send in 10 basi bombs?
And it also helps curb the "humans are so overpowered in 1.2" nay-sayers.

[Korova]

Because pushing structures is little problematic and moreover basibomb is not a object, it is a missile.

Same physics/engine problems that prevent things like grenades from being hit away by Aliens.

hmm i should have guessed that myself, thanks for the info guys

only other solution i can come up with: the normal basi bomb is an explosion of gas (similar to adv basi gas with maybe bigger range and without damage to structures) and the adv basi bomb is the current one.

That way s1 is a bit more balanced (if humies still camp in s2 or 3 they deserve to die anyway )

Basi bomb is a great addition to the game, and while this thread was originally about changing it, I see no need.
Say you're in a game where 2 "smart" campers sit in a base shooting at all they see. With rets + the idiots, that equals a lot of dead aliens. You could kill one (as in only 1) ret with a goon before the other turrets and previously mentioned idiots kill you. But that's 3 evos down the drain.
You could use a marauder...maybe if all they've got is shotguns.
So your evo flow is very slow, and a Dretch takes way too many bites to kill a wall of turrets. What to turn to? A teammate and basi bombs. Now with -2 basis, almost all of that ret cluster is gone.

Lets not forget the final minutes of a S3/S3 game where H camps with lucis and suits. Send in a couple tyrants and lose 10 evos or send in 10 basi bombs?
And it also helps curb the "humans are so overpowered in 1.2" nay-sayers.

agreed with your human camp scenario BUT i still think that 2-3 smart cooperating basis can kill almost any human team within 5 first mins of the game on atcs or almost any small balanced map (unless it's 8vs8 or more)

[ViruS]

I was wondering, why wasn't the fact that basi bombs cost 1 evo each (funko) brought to unlimited gpp server?